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Jan Jedlinski: Thank you so much, everybody for joining the seventh world staffing session. Uh, today we have Jim here, uh, longtime industry peer, who I'm super excited, uh, about, uh, he had a really great presentation at the World Staffing Summit early this year. Uh, so it's great to have. Back Jim. Uh, his topic today will be the five biggest mistakes people make when hiring anyone and the five best techniques to hire great people.
So stick around and enjoy his session. If you have questions, please feel free to use the chat, which you'll find on the right-hand side. Uh, Jim will be available for questions after his talk. And if you're interested in learning more about. Candidately which is our new product stick around after Jim session.
I'll do a quick presentation. So now I hand it over to Jim and thank you so much for having you today.
Jim Coughlin: Jan. Thank you so much. Uh, welcome everybody. My name is Jim Coughlin. I am with clubVMSA uh, feel free to check us out. Uh, we are an organization of enterprise leaders that are involved in Global Procurement, Talent Acquisition, uh, Staffing Suppliers, Managed Service Providers and VMS technology.
Uh, we create events and programs where people can collaborate, connect, and engage. Hey, so today I want to thank Jan very much and I want to thank the audience for showing up. Hopefully I give you something that's of value. Uh, and I want to thank Jeannine Parise our CEO and President of club VMSA. Who's standing right next to me there in that picture, which was taken in London, England at an event we produced and, uh, did a few years back. All right.
So hiring, I'd like to know what you think the five biggest mistakes are. I've made them all. I've made them all many times and the five best techniques are really the cure to the mistakes and I'll get right into this. I'm going to share my screen as I am now hopefully you can see that PowerPoint, uh, and we'll just go right into it.
You know, one of the things that drives me nuts in presentations is when people wait till slide 38 to get to the point, I'm going to give you the five mistakes and the five best techniques right now. Here they are. Now these might seem kind of harsh. I'm going to break it down for you. I believe I could be wrong, but these mistakes are from personal experience and watching others who I've helped hire people.
Other people get jobs. The mistakes are you're Unfocused, Unprepared, you're Deluted, you're Lazy and Naive. Ouch. I might as well get right in and insult all of you. So the techniques, the best techniques for hiring are to be clear, to Clarify what you're hiring for, to Prepare to Document, Confirm and Verify.
I'll go into all these 10 items, the five mistakes and the five techniques in detail. Feel free to argue with me. That's fine. Now, look in today's world, there's a lot of technologies that help us hire people, right. There's screening tools and there's screening apps. And there's an, even when we're hiring relationships, we're looking for a spouse or a relationship, there's dating apps, you know, E harmony, there's all sorts of tools, but really it still gets down to two things. Doesn't it. And I'm going to focus on these five mistakes. The tough love. I'm going to give you the tough love. There's really two things when you're trying to connect with anyone.
Two things I want to know from any candidate, really, from any relationship I want to know, uh, anytime I've hired anybody, whether it's a, somebody to do my gardening down in my house, somebody to develop a computer application, somebody to be a business partner with me and these two things, I'm going to get it down to the nub, make it really simple.
Are. I want to find out, can this person do the job can they? They do. They have the skills, the background, the education experience. Do they have the chops? Can they do the job? If I'm hiring an architect, are they like architect? Did they have the education? The experience I have more than one candidate that can do the job.
Then the question is, do I want this person to do the job? Or this person now I'm looking at the chemistry, culture, affinity, the likeness, the fit. Those are the two things. When I interview anybody. Okay. When I'm hiring, can they do the job and do I want them to do the job? Right off the bat here. You can see where we've got some conflict.
Cause some people hire opposite. They look at, do I want this person to do the job? And then can they fit another graph I'll share with you? And let me see if I can pop out of my screen-share here. Uh, is this, uh, let me just pop out of my share. Give me just a moment. I'll hide that and I'll stop sharing.
See my graph. Uh, Hey Jan, maybe you can make your, uh, uh, screen smaller so they can just see my screen. This, this is a way to graph, um, how to hire who'd be the best candidate. And also, uh, when you have a candidate working for you, how to manage them. So on one side of the graph is the key skill and experience.
Do they have the, the chop. And the other side of the graph is the attitude, culture fit. Do I like them? Do I want them in my team? Do they fit our culture? Now, when you look at this graph, what I would encourage you to do, and you can even plot yourself on here is draw it into four quarters. Make four quadrants 1, 2, 3, 4.
And when you're interviewing people, one thing you can simply do is say, did they have the skill set? And do they have the attitude? Boom, they're perfect fit. Rarely do you get the perfect fit even when you're looking for a spouse on match.com or bumble or whatever, you know, relationship after you're looking for rarely do you find the perfect fit.
And even if you do find the perfect fit and we'll talk about this in a moment, you'll want to, uh, uh, validate. Okay. Now let's say the person doesn't quite have the skills and the aptitudes and the attitude or the experience, but they have the attitude they're down here. There's somebody that I might consider hiring, but I'm going to have to, um, develop them.
They're a, they're what they call an India a fresher. Okay, but I'm going to have to try, I'm going to have to invest some time to train and develop and develop. Okay. So I know that right off the bat, you know, a lot of companies will hire for skill and willing to develop, to get to the perfect fit. But you may not have time.
You may need the person that can do the job and that you want to do the job. Over here. If they don't have the experience and they don't have the culture and affinity, and I don't like them, they're definitely a no hire. They got nothing to offer. No hire, no good, no brainer. And of course the last quadrant they've got the skills and experience.
They've got the chops, but they don't fit our culture. They're a bad attitude. I don't like it. They're not a nice person. This is called the pre donna, and we've all worked with those, right? We've not yet Madonna, you know, not the material girl, but the pre-Madonna the premadonna is the one that, look, I've done this, I've done it for the pre-Madonna produces, but they don't share how they produced by anybody else.
You know, that type right. They've produced, but they're not going to share it. They're not going to be a team player. The perfect example of that. And people might disagree with me in the NFL was a guy named Terrell Owens. He used to play with the San Francisco 49ers. He was wide receiver. He, it was good.
The man, he was a glory hog, and not really a team player. And it was all about him. Now you may be okay. Hiring somebody like that. I'm not okay. By the way, you can also, um, uh, let me see if I can share this. You could also put, uh, every, every employee that you have on that, on that, uh, culture, uh, fit on that graph and map them out.
Right. So let's come back to, uh, this slide. So I'm looking for the, the skills, background education experience. Can they do the job and do I want them to do the job? Now this assumes, you know, what the job is, which comes to my first mistake that people are unfocused. Now there's Vincent Vega in a store. He knows what he'll want, what he wants when he sees it.
Have any of you ever shopped like that? You know, I used to, uh, before Amazon, I lived before Amazon, during the holidays, I used to go into Macy's. To shop for my mom and my wife and my daughters. And I would go walk through the perfume department and the scarves and the, where the gloves were and everything and the jewelry and the people that Macy's would go, can I help you find something?
And I say, I'm looking on, know what I want when I see it. Biggest mistake. Now I'm not talking about job description here. You could have job description, Account Manager, Sales Manager, Recruiter, Software Developer, what you want to write down and this is the first step. The first step is a want to write down the outcomes and behaviors and you have to have both.
Now outcomes are obvious, right? So I'll just take sales position, right? I want to, uh, have five new accounts of a hundred million dollars each. I want to have, you know, an account manager job. I want to grow our accounts by 20% in the next 12 months, I want to add from a 100% to 200 people on the account specific results.
I want outcomes, but as important, and you can't skip this step are the behaviors that I want to see people do to produce those outcomes. Okay. Behaviors are what people do. Uh, I want people to show up at 8:00 AM in the morning and to not leave until 5 o'clock, that's a behavior pattern. I want to see people on the phone two hours a day.
I want to see people putting, uh, prospects into the database at a hundred a day, whatever the behavior is. Because if you don't put the behaviors down in, before you hire, what will happen is you will fire the person because they didn't exhibit the behavior. You won't fire them because they didn't produce the outcome.
You'll think it's that. But it's because they didn't exhibit the behaviors that you were expecting to produce the outcomes. And I hear this all the time. Why did you let that person go? You know, they just didn't take their work seriously. They didn't seem to have the, the right attitude and energy. They didn't seem to put in the effort.
These are behaviors. These are vague behaviors because you didn't write them down. So we need to write down and most people won't do this. I get it. That's why you're unfocused. Okay. But you take your job description and write down what are the outcomes I want the person and you could write the outcomes in 3, 6, 9 months, 1 year.
And what are the behaviors? What are the things a person would do day in, day out, week in, week out? What do I expect to see them do. How would they interact with the team? How would they bring me questions? That's a behavior that the person, when they get stuck, confused, they come to me right away. That's a behavior I want.
Outcome and behaviors. You're everything. All right. So now number one, focus is you're unfocused. Number one, mistake is you're unfocused. You're not clear on the outcomes. Y'all know what it is when I see it.
Let's go to number two. Is it you don't prepare for the discovery process. Now this is me. I used to have a three-piece suit like that in 1982, when I used to be a recruiter way back when and a desk and put my feet up on the desk, I have interviewed a million times.
Just send them in. Right. I'll know what to ask the person. Terrible. If any of you are doing this now stop, all interviews should be structured. All interviews should have written questions. All interviews should have behavioral based questions. Now let's get into this a bit. So when you're preparing questions, I've got my outcomes and behaviors.
I want, I want the person to produce this, this, that these are the results I want to see in 3, 6, 9, 12 months. And these are the behaviors I expect to see towards producing these results. And I've written this out. Now, when I'm preparing questions, the questions are all revolved around the outcomes I want.
The answers will tell me the behaviors. I'll say it again. The questions are designed around the outcomes I want. The answers will give me the behaviors. Now, when I'm writing questions, they have to be, how did you tell me about a time? I don't want to ask a theoretical question. How would you is theoretical?
So for example, how would you. Solve the problem between Russia and China. Well, what I do is I'd call a summit between Putin and the head of the Chinese government. And we'd sit down around this, this answer in this line of questioning gives me nothing. It's completely useless. It's all fluff. Anytime, you know, one of our challenges, uh, Bob, as I'm interviewing you is we're trying to get more business in this channel. How would you approach that? Well, what I do is I'd get the team together and block. Useless. What I want to say instead to Bob is. Bob, one of the outcomes we're looking for in this job is somebody that current create a sales funnel within the first three months. And that sales funnel should have a thousand prospects in it with at least three to four people within that company.
Have you done this in your past? That the yes or no? That's what I asked first. Have you done this in your past? Yes, I have. Tell me about a time when you did that and how you did it. So now I'm getting a specific read on the history of him doing the job on doing the outcome. And he's going to tell me the behaviors he exhibited or she exhibited to doing that.
Once I get the behavioral answer, the actual case. Tell me about a time when this is why you have to prepare your question folks. Tell me about a time when you, uh, built a database structure for sales. Tell me about a time when you managed an account doubled the amount of contractors on the account. Tell me about a time when you recruited for hard to find people and what you did define them.
Tell me about a time when you created a new app. Tell me about a time when you worked within a company merger and they have to tell me the time and I've got to listen because anytime I hear well, what I would do in that situation, no, I'm not asking you what you would do. I'm asking you what you did. Okay. I know I'm, I'm being really harsh now, once I get that answer and of course I write the answer down or I'm recording it like a police interrogation on the tape.
Once I get that answer. The followup question is that's great. Who would vouch for you at your former company about that? Who could validate and verify and confirm that that's what happened? Uh, this is how I get references. Okay. And what I'm asking the question about is why you got to prepare your questions.
Did I say that already? When I'm asking a question about what they did, if I start hearing well, our team pulled together a system. That's great. Your team did that. What did you do? What did you do that impacted, changed? Improved? And in follow up question I can ask is what did you learn about that? About that experience?
And when did you lose, use that learning again, especially if it was a failed attempt. And I could ask that. Tell me about a time when you, when you missed hitting your sales target. I want you to think about it. What year was it? What quarter was it? What company you're with? What was your target? What did you miss?
Want to ask about failures and successes, preparing questions, man. Boy Scout oath be prepared, clean, thrifty, brave Reverend cheerful launch. That's a boy scout up. Gotta be prepared. Now,
Inevitably, this has happened with all of us. The halo effect. I have it written here is a cognitive bias. We all hear about cognitive bias. Bias is a big, yeah. In the world right now, you know, diversity, inclusion, you know, are you biased? Are you consciously unbiased? The halo effect is a cognitive bias that makes our feelings towards someone affect how we judge their claims.
And isn't interview all about stating your claim. If we dislike someone, we are a lot more likely to disagree with them. If we like them, we are biased to agree. Nine. No, none of you are impacted and affected by the halo effect. That was a sarcastic statement. We all are. Right. In fact, as interviewees, we're trained to create the halo effect.
Do people wear their worst clothes at the interview are their best, usually their best, unless they're an eccentric software engineer and they don't care. Right. We try to give the best answers. We do this on, on dating sites, on job sites. We're really trying to make ourselves look great. Okay. And we have to be wary of the halo effect.
The one who suffers from this the most I've ever seen is my boss, Jeannine Parise. She meets people. She's like, wow, they are going to save the world. And then, you know her, she hires them and then they don't work out. And then she's crushed as psychotic. And you know, the halo effect is real. You have to be aware of it.
You're going to meet candidates. You're impressed with, you're not going to listen to what they say. You're going to listen to what you think they said, this is why you need to write down the answers to how they answer the question word for word, you need to record them and you need to have somebody else interview the candidate.
Okay, you can't leave it up to your head to hire a person. There should never be one person in charge of hiring. There should always be two, two heads are better than a one you don't want to be in your mind. It's like a bad neighborhood. You're going to get mugged in there. You're going to get deceived diluted.
This is the delusion part. Okay. Remember, you're unfocused, unprepared. Unfocused is not knowing what the job is. Unprepared is not having the questions ready. Diluted. Is this. You're going to be fooled by their story. Now, uh, this person is amazing. Oh my God, I'm so excited. We're gonna hire this person.
Separate interviews, same questions. What, why would we do that? Record the answers. You've got to see where the candidate trips up. You got to read between the lines. You got to see if the candidate gets frustrated by the same questions and you create the follow up questions based upon how they answer the first set of questions.
And it gives you the rest of the reference questions, you see, it's like, By the way my wife and I love love, love watching in murder mysteries. And this is Cassie and Sunny, Sunny's man, Cassie is the woman there. It's a detective series on masterpiece theater. I love this show. We're on season four, we just started season four and, um, They investigate historical murders.
You know, they they're, they're, they're doing road work and all of a sudden, uh, they dig up a body, right. That the road workers are on, on, on the highway and they dig up a body and they realized the body died 30 years ago. And so they have to investigate a murder from 30 years ago. And what's great about these two.
And what's great about these murder mystery shows. And if you're, if you're really serious about interviewing people, you should watch this watch any murder mystery, where there's like a team. Because they interview suspects together and separately and you should watch how they cross examine the suspect.
And what's great about murder mysteries and how it relates to hiring people is they don't pick a suspect. They eliminate everybody else, which is what you should do in your hiring. They eliminate anybody that has, this has a solid alibi. You weren't near the person at the time of the murder. You are out of town, you right.
You were with somebody else until all that's left are the suspects. And that's how murder mysteries are or a murder investigation are conducted and they cross examine. And if you're watching the cross-examined, you know, they get the person in the room with the light. Right. You know, you're not a suspect right now, but you are a person of interest.
We want to ask you a question and they ask a question, they know the answer to. Where you the night of so-and-so? Oh, I was at home in bed. That's interesting because we have a credit card receipt that it's at your bar was where you using your credit card or did you loan it to somebody else? No, that was me.
I was at the bar. Yeah. Cause we have the camera. Now I know this may not seem like. What you want to do in an interview is cross examine a candidate, put the heat under their collar, but you bet you do. You want to see if their story holds up, especially after you do the reference check. So you want it, you want to get back door references.
So remember earlier in the interview, I asked you to tell me about a time when you did this thing. And you told me about a time. You told me a story when you grew sales, when you built an application, when you created a product. Great. And the follow-up question is who would vouch for you that you did that?
And they would say a name. I take that name. I go talk to that person before my colleague interviews the person. The second time I interview that person, before I say, I'm checking the person's references. And not only would I check in with that person, I had find all the other people that they could have possibly worked with and call them.
I'll call somebody that didn't, they didn't give me their name, like their boss. They didn't give me the boos name. That's interesting. They didn't give you the boss name. I'll call their boss.
Hi, is this Janine, Janine, Jim, Coughlin used to work with you and I'm following up on what he told me he did for you.
Do you got a minute to talk? Now sometimes people say, oh, I can't give her if there's a reference. No, I just want to talk to you about him. I'm interviewing for job. I was pretty impressed at first. I'm hoping it wasn't the halo effect. He said that when he worked with you, he did this. Can you confirm that.
What else? Can you tell me about, uh, him when he was there? What else did you notice about how he worked with his team, Tell me about a time when he didn't hit his goal. How did the two of you get along? Would you say it right. So now I'm investigating the people that know about him or her. This is important, right?
Cause people's history followed them now. So, this is where, you know, the, the lazy part. I can't be lazy when I'm hiring somebody. I've got to check. Look, if you could have, if you could have talked to the ex of the person that you're dating now, wouldn't you want to, right. The person you're dating now, they tell you to start, oh, my ex, they were a psycho, you know, I'm glad I left them.
They really had some problems and they talked to the ex and they go, yeah, I'm not the psycho. The person you're with is the second right now, the last part of this, the last part, which is, you know, the last mistake in hiring is being naive is you got to do your forensic analysis. You, what is, what is, what are the forensics say?
You know, and I love these crime shows again, cause they find, you know, hairs and, you know, CSI and obviously social media has given us a great thing to do forensics with your, what your tweet, you can do Google searches media, but you can do background on vacation drug tests. I'll ask for forensics from the candidate, especially if they're in a production, a sales role at their, I want to see your W2.
If you're a sales person and you said you made. I want to see it. I want to see your sales records. I want to see your performance reviews. Well, the company has those, did, you know, in California might not be true in other states. If you sign a document with an employer, you have a right to a copy of it.
If you don't sign it, you have rights to look at it and take notes about it. But if you signed a document, you should have a copy of that. Anything you signed at your previous employer. Cause it's yours to show. I want you to think FBI check when you, when you investigate, uh, when you background check when you drug test.
Right? So think about like, if you went to work for the FBI, they go all back to your first grade, kindergarten teacher. They talked to everybody, they show up at the door and they knock. And it's two guys with dark sunglass. You know, is Jim a member of the communist party? Has he ever shown that I'm going to look, I'm going to look at their social media.
I'm going to find them on Facebook. I'm going to be a stalker. You bet. I'm going to see how they comment on people's stuff. I'm going to that tells me what kind of person. Now you may disagree. People have their own right to their own politics. That's great. But I'm looking to behavior. Looking at behaviors and attitudes.
At least I know what I have to work with. Now. These are the five things being unfocused got to right. Outcomes and behaviors you want important, not just job description, how come the behavior being unprepared? You got a list of questions you're going to ask. And the follow up questions being deleted. I have to have somebody else interviewed the person because I'm going to be affected by the halo impact
Being lazy. I got to do backdoor references. I got to do, I'm not just going to check the references. The person's going to give me, I got to check other references that he doesn't give me and being naive. I want to do my due diligence and really look into the person's behavior, especially the higher risk. The higher money I'm paying now.
So Keep disagree with me on all this. Now, one last thing, there's Drew and Jonathan, right? The property brothers. I want you to think no matter who you're going to hire no matter who, there's always going to be some home improvement going on. Okay. You're always going to have to develop them, never, ever, ever, ever have I heard you have the perfect hire nor have I ever seen one. There's always something I need to do to develop a skill, uh, uh, education, experience, uh, technique, attitude management. So you want to ask yourself as you're interviewing them, what am I going to need to add to this hire? What's going to be their skill development path, both hard and soft.
What other assessments can I do on them to see what the style is? It's going to work with them best. Right? I use Myers-Briggs type indicator. I think it's an amazing tool. Some people disagree that fine, but when you can clearly identify what you're going to add to that this person's skill set, that's going to sweeten your offer.
When you go to hire. Right. So, uh, Carl or Carla, I've interviewed you, my colleagues interview. We've asked you some pretty tough behavioral questions about the outcomes that you produce, that we're looking to have produced in this job. We found out the behaviors that you exhibited in previous jobs that align with the behaviors we're looking for for this job.
Huh we've uh, had both of us interview you. So we wouldn't be deluted and pre over impressed with your skills and presentation, which we are, its good. We've done some backdoor reference. We've talked to people you didn't even know. We were going to talk to when they said the same thing, they confirmed your story.
Right. They told us exactly what you told us, so that's good. Right? It came through. Good. You checked out. And we did some forensics. I don't know if you know, we looked at your social media and things like that. And, you know, uh, your, your thought process aligns with ours in our culture. We want to offer you a job.
And one of the things that we're gonna, uh, give you in this job is we're going to develop your skills in these areas because we think that would even take it to the, uh, greater career path. That you're looking for. Would you agree with that? Good. And here's the money. This is a pretty good hire. If I've done all those things, that's a pretty good hire.
Now that takes a lot of work. Most people think I don't have time for that. It's basically two interviews, maybe a third. It's you're interviewing them. Your colleague is interviewing them and then you both interview them a second time. Right? So there's three interviews and then your there's your offer, but you've done a lot of your homework in between.
You've done your reference, check you then your background, check them out now. Um, so the best techniques, right? I gave you the, the, the worst techniques, the biggest mistakes are being unfocused, unprepared, deluted, lazy, and naive. Come on. Admit it, you've been one of those. I've been all five of those many times, sometimes all of them on one hire.
So the techniques are to get really clear on what you want. And again, it's outcomes and behaviors to prepare your questions, have them written down, not in your head. And you write down the answers. You have to document everything, you know, in those police crime dramas, they flip back on their little notebooks.
Uh, hold on a minute. I talked to you on this date and you said this right. You got to have that. Can I have the file? Whether it's electronic or, you know, little notes, spiral notebook, got to document the answers. What did they say? They did. You got confirm it with the backdoor reference. You have to verify it with your forensic.
And lastly, how are you going to improve the employee? How are you going improve them? So, um, I'm going to open this up for questions now. Let me see. Yeah, it's 11:36. That's about the right time. 11:36 Pacific time. I'm going to open this up for questions. Comments, uh, anything you want to say? Let me see if I can stop sharing.
I'll come back. Good. And, uh, any questions and where am I going to find questions Jan?. Do we have any questions here?
You want to read it?
Jan Jedlinski: Awesome, Yeah. So I actually have one question, so you can find questions on the Q/A panel. So if you are listening in and you have a question for Jim, uh, go to the chat on the right-hand side, either type it in there or type it into the Q/A section.
And I see the first question is from, Meghna, she asks, so reference checks must be done prior to the second round of interviews? , yeah.
Jim Coughlin: Well, Yes and No, prior to the second round, I want to do some snooping around. Huh? So you could call it a reference check.
Sure. But I definitely, once I've talked to the candidate the first time and he, or she, has told me what they did to produce the outcome that I wanted, their former job and who would vouch for them, that they did that. I want to check that person. I want to talk to that person that would validate. I want a V because if I, if I can't verify that they did that, why would I want to take them to the second round that would waste my time.
So, yes, again, just like go back to crime scene investigation, murder, detective. I'm going to talk to a suspect and then I'm going to go check his alibi and then I'm going to bring him back in and talk to them again. That's how they do it. Okay, next question.
Jan Jedlinski: Perfect. Thanks Jim, I, let me see if I have one here.
Yeah.Ritesh is asking question. You mentioned we should check the W2, but these days we can't ask for what they are, we are making. Right. So the question is from Ritesh. Wait, I'm going to approve that here as well. So you can read it again if needed on the right hand side and the Q/A
Jim Coughlin: Here's the thing my W2 was volunteering.
I, I have it right. If I'm an employee, if it's, if I'm interviewing for a sales job or a, uh, a job that's based on production and my compensation is based on my production and if I'm interviewing and somebody said to me, so what'd you make in your last job, you can ask that $200,000. Can you verify that?
Yes. Great. Let me see. Okay, I'm going to ask for it. If it's voluntary, they can give it. Did you hit your sales targets? Yes. Do you have documentation to that? Can you verify that? I want that verified. Sure. I'll take your word for it. You can ask that now. If they say I don't want to give it, that's fine.
I'll just go the next step with it. You know, again, I'm going to go back to these crime scenes. Sometimes they say, I don't want to answer that right now. You know? Do you need that right now? Let me think about that. Um, I'm still gonna talk to them. Okay. Next question. We have more.
Jan Jedlinski: Let me see. Um, there is no more questions.
Quickly check the event, Chat and the Stage Chat. No, I don't see any more questions coming in. So if somebody still has a question, please feel free. Ask it now, uh, we'll definitely send the recording out to everybody. So I highly recommend that you take the video and pass it on to your entire team. I think it was a great presentation from Jim.
I think everybody on your team, whoever is hiring may be one role or a dozen roles or hundreds of roles every day. Uh, you should definitely consider just passing this on because I think it's great advice. Um, my team actually watched internally as well and they said, Hey, there's actually a couple of. We learn now.
So it's, uh, it's really great. Yeah. So thank you so much for that Jim,
Jim Coughlin: Good. Just last thing I want to thank. I want to thank Gustav and candidate.Ly and Jan and the World Staffing Summit, you guys put together a great program. You get a worldwide audience. It's amazing. I'm honored to be able to present.
What, uh, I think is useful information. If you can put it to use great, you can reach me anytime you want to clubvmsa.com. I'd be glad to answer anybody else's questions or give further insight.
Jan Jedlinski: Jim, one more question that I have here from Graham, which I think is interesting. He says we typically hire entry-level. So all Freshers, any advice when referrals or previous employers are limited.
Jim Coughlin: Yeah. Um, so, uh, Hey Graham, how's it going? Freshers. Entry-level I'm gonna ask the same questions about outcomes and behaviors. The outcome may be different. So for example, if it's somebody I'm hiring for a role to, uh, to build teams, I might ask them, tell me about a time when you built a team, maybe it was in school.
You had to build a, you know, a debate team. What did you do? Great. Who can vouch for you that you did? That? It might be a teacher, a colleague. It may be a former student. They worked with, it may be a parent of a friend. Okay. So it may not be an employer. It may be a person who led an extracurricular activity.
It might be a pastor at a church. Look, we all interact with people when we do a job. Right. So I want to find out who could verify. That they did what they said they did because I'm interviewing on to find out if they can produce similar outcomes that I'm looking for. And when they answer the question, I'm turning into the behaviors, they applied to get those outcomes.
And then I want to verify from somebody else that their story jives. Okay. That's what I'm doing. That's my interview process. That's my investigation process, CSI.
Jan Jedlinski: Thanks, Jim. Thanks so much for that. I actually just saw a few more questions coming in, so I hope do you have another few minutes?
Okay, cool. So I have Rishi here. He asks, um, what if candidates are not comfortable sharing their references?
Jim Coughlin: Yeah, look. If I'm interviewing you Jan and you, Hey, Jan, I noticed that you put together a, a World Staffing Summit. We're thinking of doing a conference, you know, can you tell me about it? And he tells me all about it and I go Jan that's great. Who else at your company would vouch that you did that? You're going to give me a name, right? And if you get defensive and you say, why do you ask? Well, because one of the things I'm charged with doing is verifying people's, you know, uh, claim. So that I don't succumb to the halo effect and be over impressed by somebody who claims get me.
Right. I'm not saying that you're saying anything, that's not true. I just need to verify it and document it. Now at the very least the person's going to go, well, I'll give you that after, you know, you want to hire me, that's fine. Just know I'm going to come back to you about that. And every other claim you make, I'm going to ask you, who would vouch for you about that?
Okay. Now, who is the person that asks the question? Jan
Jan Jedlinski: I think that is Rishi.
Jim Coughlin: Rishi, what's going to happen is how you ask for the reference is gonna determine the candidates response to giving it to you. Okay. I never have a problem getting people to tell me who would vouch for them. And that's how I say it.
I don't say who would give me a reference for you, who would vouch for you that you did that? Who could confirm that. Who did you work with that saw you do that? Uh, name's gonna come up in their head, right? When I say, can you remember back then when you did that, can you remember the people that when your team, who was one of the people in your team that was really close to you when you did that, that could confirm that you did that?
Oh, that would be Bob. Great. I just write that name down. I don't ask if I can talk to Bob. I have every right to call up. Bob. I don't have to ask you to, can I call Bob. I'm going to call Bob. Okay. And if he or she doesn't give me a name, I can still go onto their LinkedIn profile. Look at where they work.
Look at all the people that worked at that time and call them. Do you remember Jan? Do you remember what he did? Right. So I have to be willing to do some investigative work. If I know there's less thing on this Jan, I know there's recruiters on the call. If you're a recruiter, you absolutely want to do this.
You absolutely want to reference. Everybody that the person used to work with because they then become candidates or hiring managers. They become leads for you. They become people you're going to, you're going to develop relationships with. Okay. So they're not mutually exclusive into a silo of a category of a person just to reference.
All right. Hopefully that answers.
Jan Jedlinski: Hopefully that's helped you. Uh, I think there's a question by Joel, but I think, uh, If it's fine to reach out to people or contacts within the candidates, previous company, even though the candidate did not provide those references. So you just answered that question. Yeah.
Jim Coughlin: Back Door Reference.
I'm not going to just talk to the people he gives me. Right. Again, if I was going to be in a relationship with you Jan, let's say I was looking for a relationship with a smart techie guy like you. I, and I find you on match.com, right. And I'm going to say, Hey, will you ever no relationship before? And you go, yeah, I used to, I used to be relationship with John and John was just terrible to me.
I'm going to go talk to John, see what he's doing. We're about right. You know, so.
Jan Jedlinski: Awesome. There's there's one question by Tyrone, which I find interesting. Um, and I know Jim, you are an expert, I think on that in terms of, uh, when it comes to motivation, Tyrone asks, how can I motivate my recruitment team to find the best talent in less time?
What should be the best way? Uh, so it's about motivation. It's less about snow or references, but it's about how can I motivate my team? I'm sure. A few, maybe have some,
Jim Coughlin: You can't. You know, you motive, you can. How did, here's let me ask the person who asked the question. This is what motivates you, right? What motivates me?
Here's the thing. I am a lazy recruiter. The laziest recruiter, I've ever met is me. I don't want to do the work. I don't want to make the calls. I don't want to work that hard. I want to make it as easy as possible. So if you can show me a way to do my job quicker, faster with less effort, I'll do it. That's motivating for me.
Okay. So you have to find what motivates people, you know, there's the old, you know, what's going to characteristic, you know, giving people more money or beat them up. I don't believe in the ladder at all. I do believe in firing people that aren't productive. Okay. If I have a team of recruiters and I have a job and I expect certain outcomes and behaviors to do the job, and we agreed on those outcomes and behaviors, when I hired you, and then you're not doing the behaviors to get me the outcomes, we're going to have a talk.
So if one of the behaviors is motivation. Whoever asked that question. And what does motivation look like? Right. They're putting forth effort. They're on the phone. They're they're talking to at least 12 people, right? You have to define those behaviors. So your lack of motivation. Motivation is a behavior that's missing.
Now, if I hired properly, these are the outcomes I want. And these are the behaviors I expect to produce those outcomes. And if in a month, two months, three months at the outside, you're not exhibiting those behaviors. And obviously the results aren't coming. We're going to have a talk and I'm going to say, Hey, Jan, I hired you to produce these outcomes specifically by client and utilizing these behaviors. Do you remember that? Here it is. Here's the questions I asked you in the interview to know that you could do the outcomes and how you exhibited the behaviors in your last job, but they're not happening. No. Do you agree or disagree? And I come right to this. You have the skill, but you're not applying it.
Okay. So you're right now, you're over here. You're a per Madonna. You got the skill, but I'm not seeing it come out. I'm not seeing the motivation. You gotta be specific on what lack of motivation is this isn't happening? This is these behaviors aren't happening. If this doesn't correct, you're gonna fall down to here.
A no hire. I'm just giving you a warning. This is what's called the verbal warming. Now I'm not going to motivate you. Hopefully this little talk gives you a decision matrix. You're now at a decision juncture to either pick it up or drop out your choice. I'm just making it clear that the outcomes I'm looking for and the behaviors to produce those outcomes aren't being produced by you right now.
Jan Jedlinski: Okay. Good.
Jim Coughlin: Give you. Huh? Say it again.
Jan Jedlinski: I said, I hope that that helps Tara, uh, Taran was the person that asked the question.
Jim Coughlin: Well, I know it's a little harsh, but that's what seems to work. Any other questions?
Jan Jedlinski: Okay. Yeah. Well, one question I have here is interesting. Uh, and it's how do I determine if a candidate is genuinely interested in a job?
A lot of times to candidates are just interviewing to get leveraged with their current company or another offer for negotiation, other specific questions I could ask.
Jim Coughlin: Yes. Um, the great question. I never want to be used as a counteroffer. Um, I'm going to ask why they would take, first of all, I'm going to ask, where else are you interviewing?
Where else are you interviewing? And, uh, they're going to say, oh no, where this is the only thing. And then I'd say, well, why you got some great skills? And it sounds like the company, whatever they gave me is the reason why they want to leave their company. I'm going to say, yes, you've got some great skills and the reason you want to leave the company and he's, well, why aren't you interviewing anywhere else?
I'm going to start making them uncomfortable with their answer. If they're lying to me, why wouldn't you interview anywhere else? So I would, if I were you, I don't get it. Where else are you interviewing? Right. And then I'm going to backdoor reference them and ask their friends. Hey, you know, uh, I wasn't clear whether he was interfering anywhere else.
Did you know where else he was interviewing? Right. And then I'm going to say, you know, the questions I'm going to ask the candidate is. Um, what's gonna make the decision for you to take a job or not. What, what, what's it going to be? Right. How do I know that I can just confront it straight up? How do I know if I offer you the job?
You're not going to take it back to your current employer. Right. You know what what's going to be? So, you know, the, the way to do that is confronted head on that's the best I can say with that. And you might lose some to counter offers, especially if they're contract jobs. Yeah. Um, I won't offer a job unless I know it's going to be accepted.
That's the other thing. And, and that topic, I won't offer it. I'll say that last time I won't offer the job unless I know it's going to be accepted. I never offer a job when you say, let me think about it. I always trial close that the higher, otherwise I don't offer the job. Okay. Any more?
Jan Jedlinski: Um, and it was one, how do we close a candidate with competitive offers, I think related a little bit to the answer that you just had right now.
Um, and, and partially answered it, but maybe there's something that you want to add to that.
Jim Coughlin: What if you want me to say is, look, look Jan. I know you're interviewing other places. If you're not, you should be, um, one of the things is I'm not going to make you an offer. You're going to say no to, uh, if you've got other competitor of offers, we'll just let this go right now and we'll end it.
I don't want to waste my time. Uh, I don't want to be interviewing you for an $80 a job hour. If you already got a $100, a job offers. So tell me the truth, what's going on. Right. Especially if I know there are high skill level person in high demand in the market. I'm gonna, again, I'm going to, uh, it's almost like, you know, I'm going to go back to dating again.
I'm going to go back to data if I'm at the pub and there she is over there and yeah. She, you know, I got the halo effect, right. I mean, and I walk over and I say, I, I want to date you. Can we take you out to dinner? And she she's sure I'm going to say. Why did you say yes to me? What was it? Right. I mean, there's all these other guys around you.
What, what, you know, what is it about me? Right. What I'm going to ask that candidate, why are you doing this? Well, and here's one other thing I'll end with this Jan, when you're asking the candidate, why they want to work for you. You want to layer down? So what I mean by that is why do you want this job?
Oh, it sounds like a great job in the company. Why is that important? Oh, because I want to be with a stable company. Why is that important? Because my last job wasn't stable and I had problems and I, I had to take a step back and start over again, and I want to work with great people. Why is that important?
Because it'll make my career stronger and better in the future. Right. Layer down, layer down, keep asking the why. All right. Any more or are we done?
Jan Jedlinski: I think we are done. It looks like no more questions are coming in now. And if anybody has questions, you know, feel free to reach out to Jim or Janine and ClubVMSA you should definitely check out their conferences and their events.
They're amazing. So, uh, we also linked, uh, the, the website on the expo booth, and we are obviously going to share the video and Jim's presentation. So feel free to pass it onto your team. I actually highly recommend it. And, uh, thank you so much, Jim, for being here. It was, you know, again, a pleasure to have you on those sessions.
Uh, it's really exciting. Um, my team was watching the session and everybody was super excited. So thanks again. I really appreciate your time. And for whoever wants to stay on, stick around. I'll do a quick introduction to candidate.ly who, whoever knows candidate.ly. already. You can jump off and I'll Jim, I'll let you go as well and I'll speak to you soon.
Jim Coughlin: Yeah. And thank you so much. Thank you everybody. Bye bye. Now my pleasure.
Jan Jedlinski: You too. Cool. So thanks everybody for joining the World. Staffing Session, number seven with Jim. Uh, my name is Jan I'm, the CEO and co-founder of Candidate.ly. Um, in the next two minutes, I'll just give you a quick introduction and update to candidate.ly.
A couple of things that we're working on. So, whoever wants to stick around and just see a quick demo, uh, and joined the wait list and also get a personalized demo of the product. Uh, stick around. I'll do that right now. And for whoever wants to leave. Uh, leave the call and also, uh, watch out for the recording. So if you're interested in, you know, passing on the recording to your team, uh, you know, watch out for an email from us and we'll be posting it on LinkedIn in the next couple of days as well. Um, so let me share my screen quickly with you.
You go. Hopefully you're able to see my screen, uh, for a quick introduction. So Candidate.ly is a new, the product that we just launched. Uh, we call it the digital storefront for staffing and recruiting companies. So if you're running a staffing company, if you're a recruiter or an Account Manager within a staffing company, that's the right time for you to be here on the call to learn more about candidate.ly, uh, candidate.ly helps you with two use cases.
One is candidate presentation. And one is candidate marketing. So we want to help you to create a digital and a much better buying experience for your customers when you are presenting candidates to your customers. So instead of attaching a resume to an email and sending it over to a customer and waiting for feedback, you essentially create your digital candidate.ly, share it over and wait for customers to give you quick feedback and chat with you directly through your links.
On the other hand side, you will have life insights into the. Uh, sort of keep your eyes, how customers are viewing and, uh, and, and receiving lists and all the interaction with your clients. Uh, and on the other hand side, you'll be able to use candidate.ly Also for candidate marketing. So if you have candidates coming off, assignment or candidates that have been interviewed, but not placed, you simply connect your applicant tracking system, add your candidates through your candidate list.
Give them a quick update here, and then share your list directly with your customers. Uh, so basically what happens is you'll get insights, uh, now into all of the interactions with your customers. And basically you'll have now the option to share a branded link with your customer. Instead of using emails.
So what do you see in front of me is what your customer essentially will experience a branded link with your header, with your logo embedded on your URL. So for the customer, uh, it's really a good experience to work with your brand and your customer will simply be able to review your candidate, chats with you, give you feedback about your submissions, all of that digital experience on the web and mobile.
So we are busy working on improving the product every day. We have tons of companies already signed up and using the product in the early access phase on the waitlist. So if you're interested in that and if you want to. Has your team sign up to the product or speak to us about certain use cases, feel free to simply reach out to me.
I'll leave my email here on the chat, but also there is a poll. So on the right hand side on the chat, you'll see a poll. You can simply press I'm interested in candidate.ly and we will reach out to you, uh, with some more information. With that said, thank you so much, everybody for joining. I'm just going to drop my email here real quick into the chats.
So whoever wants to reach out to me, simply message me at, email@example.com and otherwise, thank you so much for, uh, joining us today. Watch out for the next World Staffing Session, number eight, which is coming up in the next couple of weeks, uh, in the middle of August, we'll be definitely keeping you posted.
We have some great speakers and great sessions coming up and don't forget to watch out for the World Staffing Summit 2022. It's coming up and we are already preparing speakers, panels, and we'll have a great event again. Thank you so much everybody. And see you soon.
What you will take away from this Session: Learn what to avoid doing when interviewing, selecting and hiring people, and how to make better hires by understanding the motivations and behaviors before a person takes your job.
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